tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News August 7, 2017 9:00am-11:00am BST
good morning. monday, i'm victoria derbyshire. the top story, a british model allegedly kidnapped and held in milanforsix model allegedly kidnapped and held in milan for six days has spoken about her experience. police in italy say 20—year—old chloe ayling was abducted and drugs before attem pts was abducted and drugs before attempts were made to sell her in an online auction. translation: he is dangerous because the victim was dropped. as soon as she was kidnapped, let's say she was injected with ketamine. also on the programme — we can reveal that 32 children between the ages of 3 and 5 were referred to the nhs last year because they're unhappy with the gender. we've been following lily and jessica — two of the uk's youngest transgender children — since 2015 and will bring you an update on them this hour has anybody being mean to you? yes, this person. they said you will not
bea this person. they said you will not be a very good woman, you should just be a man. and that really upset me. that full report in the next 15 mins or so. and an american nhs doctor tells this programme he's been separated from his family because of a mix up over his visa which means adopted sons were prevented fromjoining him in birmingham — even though his birth son was allowed to move to the uk it was scary for them because they we re it was scary for them because they were fingerprinted and put in a holding cell, a nice holding cell, but they knew they were being detained. we are completely separated and we cannot make plans. half the family is gone and i have i'io half the family is gone and i have no idea when they are going to be back. hello. welcome to the programme, we're live until 11. later on, we'll hear about the google employee who says biological differences between the way men and women
are wired is the reason there are so few women in tech jobs. the guy says women tend to prefer jobs in social or artistic areas and men like coding. job get in touch. is there any truth in what he says? use the hashtag victoria live and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate. plus were the crowd at the london stadium right to boo justin gatlin on sat night, and sort of boo when he was handed his gold medalfor winning the 100m last night? letters know your views. our top story today. a 20 year old british model who says she kidnapped for almost a week in milan has returned to the uk. chloe ayling says she feared for her life "second by second" and claims she was drugged, stuffed in a suitcase and threatened with being sold as a sex slave after being booked for a photo shoot. italian police say the model was attacked and drugged by two people.
sophie long reports. she had travelled to milan for a photo shoot, but it was bogus and the young woman was abducted and held here, an abandoned shop on the outskirts of the city. italian police say the 20—year—old british model was attacked and drugged by two people. translation: the victim was doped with ketamine, then she was locked in a bag and carried for hours in a car. think what could have happened if she suffered from asthma. it's thought that she was bundled into the boot of this vehicle. they believe she was taken to a remote mountain cottage near turin, and say she spent much of her week—long ordeal handcuffed to a chest of drawers. her kidnapper is alleged to have tried to sell her for sex on the internet, and demanded a ransom of nearly a quarter—of—a—million pounds. but after six days, she was released and taken to the british consulate in milan. this man, lukasz herba, a 30—year—old polish national living in britain, has been arrested by italian police.
jessica parker is here. what else do we know? she has been speaking this morning, the victim, chloe ayling, about her terrifying ordeal saying she feared for her life second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour. police in italy say she was handcuffed to a chest of drawers for six days and we know officers are saying they have arrested a polish national on kidnapping charges and a spokesman for west midlands police said an address in oldbury in the west midlands has been raided. the national crime agency say a special unit has provided support for the italian authorities. it is an
ongoing investigation. italian prosecutors telling us the details of this case that chloe ayling was allegedly attacked by two men before being dropped with ketamine and locked in a bag before she was taken toa locked in a bag before she was taken to a house in the mountains. why did they let her go? there is speculation about this but an ongoing investigation and we expect more details over the coming hours and days. one theory is they discovered she had a young child but asjessica said, discovered she had a young child but as jessica said, more discovered she had a young child but asjessica said, more details to come. joanna is in the bbc newsroom with a summary of the rest of the day's news. this programme can exclusively reveal that the number of children aged 10 and under who are being referred to the nhs because they‘ re unhappy with their biological gender, has more than doubled over the last two years — rising from 87 to 216. this includes 32 children aged 5 or younger who have been referred over the last year. transgender is a term used to describe a person who doesn't identify as the gender that was assigned to them at birth — they may wish to be seen as a different gender or no gender at all. and we'll bring you exclusive news
with two of the uk's youngest transgender children — whose stories we have been following over the last two and a half years — shortly. thousands of commuters are having theirjourneys disrupted today because of major improvement work at britain's busiest railway station, waterloo in london. more than half of its platforms are closed so they can be extended to accommodate longer trains. network rail has warned of "challenging days" ahead for passengers. security forces in venezuela are searching for 10 men who escaped with weapons after they tried to storm an army base in the city of valencia. the president nicolas maduro congratulated the army for successfully stopping the assault — although two people died during it. earlier, a video posted on social media showed uniformed men saying they were rising against a murderous tyranny. greg dawson reports. venezuela has grown used to rebellion, but this time it was different. a small group of men in military uniform openly defying their president. translation:
this is not a coup. this is a civic and military action to restore constitutional order and save the country from total destruction, to stop the murders of our youth and relatives. as members of the military, we demand that the will of the people be recognised to free themselves of tyranny. any hopes of an uprising were quickly deflated, though. venezuelan authorities claim to have foiled the attack within a couple of hours, with two men killed and eight arrested. the regional military commander described it as a terrorist paramilitary attack paid for by right—wing political groups. with a raised fist, and chants of loyalty to the socialist homeland, order was restored. but this is now the second small—scale rebellion in recent months. injune, a police commando stole a helicopter and threw grenades at the country's supreme court. this latest uprising,
while short—lived, may offer a glimmer of hope to those leading daily protests, that some soldiers, as well as civilians, share the discontent against president maduro. in his address to the nation, the man himself looked far from concerned. translation: i want to congratulate the armed forces for the immediate reaction they had against the terrorist attack. a week ago, we beat them with votes, and today we beat the terrorism with bullets. all this on the weekend venezuela's new constituent assembly held its first session, after last sunday's controversial vote. it was justified as the only way to unite this divided country. so far, there is little sign of that goal being achieved. brazilian police say a british woman has been shot and wounded near rio de janeiro. the woman's condition isn't thought to be life threatening.
new laws which will give people more control over what happens to their personal data online are to be introduced. the government bills the changes as the right to be forgotten and people will be able to ask for personal data or things posted as children to be deleted. a google employee's opinion, which criticised the tech giant's executives at google have denounced an internal memo in which an employee criticises the company's policy on diversity. the mail softwa re policy on diversity. the mail software engineer argued that the lack of females in top tech jobs was due to biological differences between men and women. staff have been told to only speak
english the health and safety reasons and that it was the official language of the company. sports direct said there was no ban on welsh being spoken and was looking into what had happened. jeremy clarkson has said he won't be back at work for quite some time after being diagnosed with pneumonia. the former top gear presenter was admitted to hospital in majorca, where he's on holiday with his family. he said it was the first time he'd been off sick since he started working in 1978, and thanked fans for all their good wishes. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 9.30am. we have some messages and helen says asa we have some messages and helen says as a parent of a transgender child i am pleased to their programmes like yours that show our kids in a human and nonsense facial ice way and i find it offensive when others say my trans—son is find it offensive when others say my tra ns—son is mentally find it offensive when others say my trans—son is mentally ill when they know nothing about him. he is amazing. we are getting messages like this anthony, i'm sorry, at
that age, in my humble opinion, children go through phases where they like to play as the opposite sex. how many boys used to try dressing up with high heel shoes and do not forget the term tomboy. i imagine it is the easy these days in which people are quick to put a label on things. and mermaid, a support group for transgender people and families say it is a shame that people not affected by this feel they have a right to criticise. sarah says, nice to see people saying kids do not know at this age when they know nothing about the issue. we know, wejust know whether we are a boy or girl. you just do. it is not weird, it is part of nature, which makes mistakes at times it has such variety. the film in the next couple of minutes follows lily and jessica, not their real names, children who have transitioned socially in the last couple of years and we have followed them since january 2015.
let's get some sport with leah. contrasting reaction at the world athletics championships yesterday. the usain bolt and justin gatlin row, anybody who missed it, justin gatlin received brewing last night when he was given his gold medal. this is what he faced. the world champion, representing the united states of america, justin gatlin. make of it what you will, he pulled off the shock win to end usain bolt‘s rein in the final individual race and it has divided people. those unhappy because americans serve “— those unhappy because americans serve —— the americans serve two vans. sebastian coe said he had not broken any rules and was allowed to compete. usain bolt, one of the most
famous stars, finished third and got the bronze medal. better news for jessica ennis—hill, the retired athlete did not have to work up a sweat to get gold medal, after a russianjug drug sweat to get gold medal, after a russian jug drug —— sweat to get gold medal, after a russianjug drug —— drug cheat was deposed. so an upgrade from a silver medal to a gold forjessica. they could not be a better time to receive the medal than at the time but i am thankful it has been here andi but i am thankful it has been here and i have been able to say goodbye one last time. i felt i had and i have been able to say goodbye one last time. ifelt i had not forgotten an ounce of feeling how it felt five years ago, stepping out into the stadium, but i had kind of forgotten about feeling a little bit and standing here and hearing the crowd again brought it flooding back and that is why it was so emotional.
i love seeing a pregnant woman on top of the podium getting a medal in the middle of an athletic stadium. i have to agree, being pregnant myself? are you? iam. six are you? i am. six months. congratulations. you so don't look it! oh, my gosh. congratulations. a couple of british competitors disappointed. katarina johnson—thompson, disappointment. many talked about her being the successor to jessica ennis—hill. many talked about her being the successor tojessica ennis—hill. she finished fifth in the heptathlon and hopes of a medal began with a poor highjump, one of her best events. she did not pick it up in the hundred metres but she perform better in three events yesterday and was second in the 800 metres heat but she left herself too far behind.
more disappointment for holly bradshaw, who came sixth in the pole vaults. she cleared what would have been a bronze medal but missed on the count back, so not great. staying positive, on monday. there is still a lot for them to work on and sometimes your biggest setbacks are your biggest strengths and they may come back learning lots of lessons. the football season is up and running, which is all wrong in my view! let's talk about the community shield and penalty rules. we are going to talk about abba, the new format for taking penalties. it is like tie—breaks in tennis. team a takes the first penalty and then tb takes the first penalty and then tb takes the next two and it goes on and and this is in place of the old system where it flip—flopped. each team ta kes a where it flip—flopped. each team takes a penalty. the old system. it
is thought to make the act of penalties more fair because one team is always catching up with the old system. if you are still confused, i ama system. if you are still confused, i am a little bit. this is how it works in practice. the match ended 1-1. we works in practice. the match ended 1—1. we went to a shoot out. the captain had no problem with his penalty. arsenal took the next two. theo walcott there. he sent the chelsea keeper the wrong way. chelsea keeper the wrong way. chelsea missed back—to—back penalties. which was bad for them, obviously. this allowed olivier giroud to win the match from the spot for arsenal, who kick off the premier league on friday and they will take on leicester in the community shield at the emirates. this morning, exclusive interviews with two of the uks youngest with two of the uk's youngest
transgender children whose stories we've been following over the last two and a half years. this programme can reveal that the number of children aged ten and under who are being referred to the nhs because they're unhappy with their biological gender has more than doubled over the last two years — rising from 87 to 216. this includes 32 children aged five or younger who have been referred over the last year. "transgender" is a term used to describe a person who doesn't identify as the gender that was assigned to them when they were born. they may wish to be seen as a different gender or no gender at all. we first met "lily" who's now nine and "jessica" who's now ten in january 2015 and have followed them ever since. we're not using their real names, showing their faces or revealing where they live. can you remember when you were being treated as a boy why you wanted to wear girl clothes? i wanted to just see how it looked
and see if anyone laughed or not. and i would be happier then. in year two, i changed into girl clothes and then all of year three and now all of yearfour, and so on. clothes and then all of year three in year two, i changed into girl clothes and then all of year three and now all of yearfour, and so on. clothes and then all of year three
i feel 99% girl and 1% boy, because i imagine when i was a boy i always had to complain and say, "oh, i don't want to put trousers on." but now i'm a girl i'm like, "yeah, i get to put tights on and dresses on and all those things." and sometimes a scrunchy, you know, the big hair bobbles. so a lot better. not too fast! i don't want to do power walking. i'm on my slowest gear. why do they have the extra bit? yeah, it's been good. i think things, since we last saw you, this year's been a lot easier than last year. obviously last year lilly transitioned socially to start living as a girl, and that was quite a difficult year. but really this year it's just been carrying on, and she's just very happy now, she's very settled. she's got a great group of friends and just is a very happy girl now. i suppose our main change we've had through this year is we've moved house, so we're living in a community now
on a new estate and getting to know different people, and there's always dilemmas there about how much to tell people and who to share this with, and should we, or should we just keep quiet about it? so as much as part of you wants to educate everyone and tell everybody and try and help people understand, at the same time we've got to think about her future, what she would want, and she doesn't want to always be known as the trans child, so i guess that's a dilemma that we face. don't run me over, please! yeah, so at school sometimes people say, "what's it like having a transgender sister? " and ijust say it's got normal and it'sjust fine over the years, i've just adapted to it, it'sjust like i've got
a normal sister and i've had her like that forever. the worst that's happened is someone's asked me, "oh, you have a transgender sister," in a sarky way, but it didn't really bother me. i wasjust fine with it, yeah. what do you think, when you go to secondary school, which will be soon, do you think it might be an issue, are you expecting it to be? are you prepared? i'm pretty prepared for anything, really, for people to be asking me questions, and i'lljust reply the same way i did, say the same things. this is two years ago. and what part were you playing? i was playing a mouse, and it was the pied piper of hamlin. so you were aged seven and then, weren't you? yeah. and so the next year, i look very different. you look much more grown—up, don't you? then this year... i like this outfit. can you think of some words that describe how you feel
when you're dancing? well, i enjoy it a lot when i'm dancing on stage with my friends. and ijust like it how we alljust do it together. do you feel like them, do you feel different? ifeel the same. is that good? yeah. so tell me what makes you happiest at the moment? being in a lovely home, being in a lovely school. everyone's always looking after me and caring. what would you say makes you sad? people not being kind, or when i see people being bullied. has anyone been mean to you? yeah, there's this person,
and they're just being really mean. can i ask what they said to you? they said, "you won't be a very good woman, you should just be a man." and that really upset me. because you know when you grow up you will be a proper woman? yeah. i'm not going to end up being a boy forever, because i will be a girl, and i know that. i get a bit annoyed and angry because i don't like it and i can't control my temper very well. so these are your teeth, right? so they need to stay in place. no, but i'm still doing stuff. why don't we cut that out and then
we scoop another pumpkin out? she's excited, she loves school, she was so excited about going back to school. after the holidays, that was good, wasn't it? she's doing well academically, she's having some ups—and—downs with her friends at the moment. the hormones are starting to kick in. i can't get any out. try and get this bit that i've got. there you go, pull that out. well done. yeah, she could be happy one minute and thenjust snap into the darkest, gloomiest mood in the world. and then occasionally she'll bring up, you know, "when i grow up, i'm going to live alone because nobody will want to live with me because i'm trans. " "i'll never get a boyfriend."
never get a boyfriend. you know, they should be children, they should be allowed to just get on with this stuff. ijust want everything to just go smoothly and normal for her, as normal as life is. i'd give that three out of ten! jessica, hello. thank you very much for talking to us again, how are you? ok, thanks. good, what have you been up to? school, mainly. we broke up from school. how was year five? it was cool, i don't really see a lot of my friends in the summer holidays. do your friends talk to you ever about you living your life as a boy in the past, or not any more?
they never did, and they don't. everybody accepts you and just gets on with it? yeah. and how do you feel about that? i'd rather them not mention it than always talk about it. how do you want people to treat you? like a normal girl. have you thought about whether, when you go to secondary school, will you tell people that you used to live as a boy, or will you not mention it? i won't mention it, but if it comes up i probably will say, you know... you'll be honest? mmm. why? because it's true. i'm not going to say, "hey, hey, hey, guess what? i'm just going to like, if someone mentions it, then i'm going to say, "i am, yeah." because, yeah, i am. hello, everybody, how are you all?
quite a while since we last chatted, so tell me what progressjessica has made since we last spoke? she's doing fantastically. academically, she's exceeding her age group. her mood's improved significantly. she's so much happier. she wasn't as happy last time when we saw you, but she's a lot happier now, isn't she? why do you think that is? i think probably since we've been to the clinic in london, the gender clinic for kids, she's probably felt a bit more reassured. and her worry is that she's turning into a boy, that puberty will mean she's going to turn into a boy? i remember last time she was talking about worrying about growing a beard and things like that, but they've said, look, at the moment you're nowhere near it? yeah, she was really, really worried about that, but that's sort of
been alleviated now. what about lily? lily's good, she's had a good year, very happy at school. friendships are good, she's got a good group of friends. just seems very happy. and when we first met you two years ago, could you ever have imagined you saying in the future, "yeah, she's really happy, she's doing really well, she's got friends, it's not really an issue any more?" i don't know, i guess you hope for that. when you're at that early stage, you don't know how it's going to play out. and you still don't know how it's going to play out. all: no. there's still a minute chance, really, that when puberty does start that she could go back and say, "actually, i don't feel like a girl, i feel like a boy." yeah, i do sometimes check in with lily and say, "do you think you'll ever want to be the boy again," and she's immediately, "no," she's very sure. she's always been, i've never seen any signs of not being sure, so i'd be very surprised if that happens, but you don't know, do you?
you just don't know. has it been harderfor you for your female partner to transition to a man than for your son to transition to a girl? yeah. forjessica, i'm her mum, i'm going to love her regardless. but, you know, i chose alex when he was female, not when he was male. and i wouldn't want alex any other way, if this is what's going to make him happiest. but itjust took a little bit of adjustment for me to come round to you being a man! since we first spoke to you and broadcast the film on oui’ programme two years ago, which was picked up by all the national newspapers, it was on the front pages of various tabloids and broadsheets the next day, what do you think has changed in these two years?
how much has changed? i think a lot has changed. i think our programme... there's been a lot more coverage, i think of trans, especially trans children issues, which i think has been brilliant and has hopefully helped a lot of families. it helped us watching especially the american stuff that i tapped into when i was looking for information, so i think we've gone a long way. one thing that's changed is that people have a better understanding now, the education is coming through as well that kids aren't changing sex, so to speak, at such a young age. they're not having surgeries, as it's been reported, at such a young age. so the truth, i guess, is coming out. it's not as sensationalised as it once was. although there are still people, and there will be people watching you right now, who say, "your kids are still too young, how can they possibly know? i think if you've lived with a child, as we have, my child, lily, from the age of two probably
upwards, is so happy now as a female, and everyone around her who knows her can see how much more confident and happy she is, she'sjust how she is now, she's who she needs to be. when you think about the future for your girls, how do you imagine it? positive. yeah. jessica's really quite vocal about wanting to be a teacher, so she's already said to me that she wants to go to university, she's a really clever little girl. young lady, even. she's grown up quick! she's grown up so much in the last year. i have every faith that she's going to have a happy life. i think i feel fortunate that it's not ten years ago, and i always remember that and think, even five years ago i think things were so different, so i'm very grateful that we're
where we are now. i know we've still got a long way to go, but i think it's getting a lot better, so fingers crossed for ourgirls, yeah. more on this after 10am this morning. ican media i can media e—mails. kim says i wish people would stop underestimating the knowledge and intelligence of children. people who have no understanding are in no position to passjudgment, understanding are in no position to pass judgment, and there understanding are in no position to passjudgment, and there is a massive difference between tomboy and transgender. i wish there had been more openness and support many yea rs been more openness and support many years ago, but i am glad things are progressing and thanks to your programme for highlighting this. jan said one day humans will realise it
is individuality that matters and not plumbing. the children present as they want to without peer pressure or parental or social conditioning. there are tomboy ‘s boys who like dressing up in high heels, good for them, they are expressing individuality. do not put anyone ina expressing individuality. do not put anyone in a pigeonhole until they choose it. and after ten we will speak to a doctor from the nhs's only identity clinic for under 18 ts, only identity clinic for under 18 ‘s, the tavistock. pressure is mounting on north korea to end this our tests. will sanctions force them to ta ke our tests. will sanctions force them to take action? was it right for sprinter, justin gatlin, who's twice been suspended for doping, to be booed as he collected his gold medal at the athletics world championships? we will talk to two former athletics champions. here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news. a 20—year—old british model who says she kidnapped for almost a week in milan has returned to the uk.
chloe ayling says she feared for her life "second by second" and claims she was drugged, stuffed in a suitcase and threatened with being sold as a sex slave after being booked for a photo shoot. italian police say the model was attacked and drugged by two people. a polish man who lives in the uk has been arrested on kidnapping charges. this programme can exclusively reveal that the number of children aged 10 and under who are being referred to the nhs because they‘ re unhappy with their biological gender, has more than doubled over the last two years — rising from 87 to 216. this includes 32 children aged 5 or younger who have been referred over the last year. transgender is a term used to describe a person who doesn't identify as the gender that was assigned to them at birth — they may wish to be seen as a different gender or no gender at all. new laws which will give people more control over what happens to personal data online are to be
introduced. the government bills the changes as the right to be forgotten and people will be able to ask for personal data or material posted when they were children to be deleted. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10.00. here's some sport now. at the world athletics championships cheers forjessica ennis—hill he was awarded a gold medal but booing for justin gatlin. an upgrade from silver to a gold medalforjessica ennis—hill from the 2011 world championships after the top prize was stripped from a russian for doping, but not as friendly for justin gatlin as he picked up the gold medal after beating usain bolt in the 100 metre men's final. arsenal beat chelsea 4—1 on penalties to win the community shield. the penalty shoot out was played under the doomed abba format.
england resume on 200 and 48—2, leading by 360 runs. south korea's ik kim is the women's new british open champion as she held off a spirited challenge to win the title by two shots. more on the 20—year—old british model who says she kidnapped for almost a week in milan has returned to the uk. chloe ayling says she feared for her life "second by second" and says she was drugged, stuffed in a suitcase and threatened with being sold as a sex slave after being booked for a photo shoot. that is the room where she says she was kept. the milan prosecutor paolo storari has been talking about what he thinks happened. translation: he is dangerous - dangerous why? because the victim was drugged with ketamine. as soon as she was kidnapped, let's say she was injected with ketamine. you know that if these substances
are injected by people who are not experts, it may cause problems. second, she was closed inside a bag and driven for hours in it in a car. you just think what would happen if a person suffering from asthma went through that. it's thought that the man who held chloe ayling belonged to a group called ‘black death.‘ angela giuffrida is a freelance journalist who has been reporting on the case, and matthew hickley is co—founder of the cyber security company hacker house. angela, what details do you know of this case? nothing new has emerged since the police gave a press conference on saturday and also what emerged in the italian press yesterday which was a statement chloe ayling gave to police about the horrific ordeal. we know that
there were maybe three, four accomplices, who the police are trying to track down. in terms of where she was held, we have shown an image of the room where she says she was held. whereabouts was it in italy? that was in a remote village on the outskirts of turin. what does she say happened when she was held their? she said her hands and ankles we re their? she said her hands and ankles were tied to a chest of drawers and during the six—day she was there she had to sleep on the floor. also that she believed there were three, four accomplices involved. their motive was what? it is not clear. one of the biggest mysteries of the story so far is why the suspect accompanied her to the british consulate in milan. she was
a p pa re ntly consulate in milan. she was apparently released because she was apparently released because she was a mother of a two—year—old, which was supposedly against their rules. we can talk about this group. the black death group. do they exist? group has origins with various internet conspiracy forums and it is not clear they did exist. previously they have had websites from 2015 where they have said they could offer kidnap victims for auction and these websites were found out to be fa ke these websites were found out to be fake and the images used were not of any victim and had been taken from videos. there had been a number of youtube videos supposedly tied to the groups. at this stage it is unclear if they are a real group.
this is the first instance where somebody has come forward and said they were kidnapped and placed on auction. we know the images were posted onto a dark net website but this is the first case of its kind, as far as this is the first case of its kind, as farasi this is the first case of its kind, as far as i am aware. and the first case involving this group if it exists where the rest made. that is correct. whether this individual is linked to an organised crime group, if he perhaps may be a disturbed individual, we do not know. these allegations have come about and are supported by a long—standing internet conspiracy theory about the existence of a group that previously has advertise things like murder for hire, assassinations and even bombings. it is quite disturbing and
we will certainly look to what evidence comes to light as the police investigate. thank you. still to come. work the crowd right booing justin gatlin, who has twice been banned for doping? letters know your views. let's turn our attention to north korea where international pressure is mounting on the secretive country let's turn our attention to north korea where international pressure is mounting on the secretive country to stop its nuclear missile tests. the last few days has seen a unanimous vote at the un security council for additional sanctions on north korea, and a chinese demand to end nuclear and missile tests. whether it will bring the tests to an end is another matter. an offer wasjust made at an international summit in the philippines by the south korean foreign minister in a rare face to face encounter with his north korean counterpart, and swiftly rejected. in a moment we'll talk to experts about the country's nuclear threat and the dire human rights abuses north koreans are subjected to, but first take a look at how it got this far. let's discuss this now
with dr patricia lewis, an expert in international security and nuclear capability. and kate allen the director of human rights charity amnesty. how alarmed dr lewis should north korea's neighbours be when it comes to their nuclear capability? they are very alarmed, of course. they have been living with this for a long time however. so there is a certain getting used to in. the past north korea used the nuclear capability that's been developing as a way of blackmailing, to get money for so—called humanitarian aid, but sometimes that's been diverted. so, a lot of this is the same and yet the technical capability has now changed. the missiles that they have been developing having a longer reach, possibly being able to reach the united states itself, but south
co ro nary the united states itself, but south coronary qa and japan have been ta rg eta ble coronary qa and japan have been targetable for a highly. they don't have nuclear warheads to go on top. on top of the missiles. explain the significance of that for our audience? a ballistic missile is a ball that goes up into the air and comes back down again. if you change the angle, you can get it to go longer distance, but its accuracy is poon longer distance, but its accuracy is poor. if you put a conventional warhead on top and it misses, it won't have a huge amount of impact. if you put a nuclear warhead on top and it misses it has a massive impact. developing a small enough warhead to go on top, that's light enough to travel a long way, that's the trick and we don't think they're quite there yet, so it's whether or not we have got this window still to negotiate. ok. kate, so much of the focus is on north korea's nuclear capabilities. does that overshadow the grotesque human rights abuses that go on in that country? well,
the human rights abuses are, as you say, grotesque. the un had a commission which reported two or three years ago and the author of that commission report said at the end of the second world war people said if only we'd known, we would have done something and he said we do know what is happening in north korea and it is hundreds of thousands of people in absolutely shocking prison conditions, in camps, where you know they are not charged. you can be taken into a camp for showing, not enough support for the regime. your entire camp for showing, not enough support forthe regime. your entire family can be put in that camp with you and you will be there until you die. it is appalling. there are mass executions, torture, rape, it is an astonishing regime and yes, we do not talk enough about those human rights abuses. the situation with potential nuclear weapons is
massively worrying and behind that sits a population that are traumatised and abused in the most shocking of ways. and it would seem there is little you, we, the west, south korea, china, can do about it? well, i'm very encouraged by the fa ct well, i'm very encouraged by the fact that the international community has come together about this issue in north korea. i'd like to see them come together about the human rights issues in north korea. that un commission, which, you know, we as amnesty gave our evidence to, said that north korea should be referred to the international criminal court. now, this is the way that the world holds people who are responsible for such abuses to account. and it is the first step thatis account. and it is the first step that is necessary. you know... even if that happened, it would be symbolic. they wouldn't turn up. they wouldn't care. it would be a first step. it would be a step to saying to that regime, the people
responsible for this will be held to account. individually, personally, you will be held to account. that day will come. we will be gathering the evidence. we will be talking to the evidence. we will be talking to the survivors of those camps. we will find your names and we will one day make sure that there is justice. and that is a start to people knowing that they simply cannot get away with the impunity that they are at the moment. dr lewis the new sanctions are going to cost north korea around an extra $1 billion. how much of an impact will that have and what sort of an impact on first of all the regime and secondly, the people of north korea? first of all, they would have to be implemented. sanctions are notoriously leaky. the idea is to aim at hurting the elite and the problem with sanctions is sometimes they hurt even further the people, but i think, as kate rightly says, we are in a situation where the
people rt hurting so badly unless they are in the elite that it is certainly worth doing. the important thing, i think, certainly worth doing. the important thing, ithink, is certainly worth doing. the important thing, i think, is that we've got china and russia in the security council with a united states resolution and this required an enormous effort on the pat of the united states and they are to be congratulated and it shows how worried both china and russia are. how they are working together with the united states and this sends a very big message to north korea that perhaps matters more on the amount of money we're talking about. the symbolicisation lation by the two countries that has supported them in the security council before. thank you very much. coming up — jobs for the boys — could the lack of women in top tech jobs be due to biological differences between men and women and not sexism? that's one software engineer's opinion. what you think? here is an e—mailfrom sue about
here is an e—mail from sue about our film about lily and jessica, two transgender children who we have been following since 2015. "my son was born in 1983 when the word transgender was in our world unknown. christopher grew up and when he was 18 said to me i wish i had been born your daughter and not your son. however, it had been born your daughter and not yourson. however, it wasn't had been born your daughter and not your son. however, it wasn't until he was 30 that he came out as a woman. i'm so proud of her. christine is now 3a and is engaged to be married. sometime ago she was asked when did you first know? she replied i've always known, but as a child i didn't have the words. i'm glad the world has change i'm proud of my beautiful daughter. " glad the world has change i'm proud of my beautiful daughter." thank you for that. the american sprinterjustin gatlin has been booed for a second time as he collected his gold medal at the athletics world championships in london last night. gatlin, who's twice been suspended for doping, beat usain bolt into third place in the men's100 metres final on saturday, prompting boos from the crowd.
around the world, people are tuning in for this final, and the sound they will hear will be you. five global medals, a best of 9.74, forjustin gatlin! booing. he wasn't going to do the walk and have to absorb more of that. the undefeated... for the final time, usain bolt. cheering. "come on, usain", they say. a best of 9.74 forjustin gatlin... so many times the silver medal, so many times he has followed bolt home, justin gatlin. one more time.
bolt gets a pretty good start. so does jimmy vicaut, and so does chris coleman. coleman's leading it, and bolt‘s got to chase it hard — he's not going to catch him at the moment, but here he comes, and coleman's still in the lead, and gatlin wins it! it's gatlin. right at the death, gatlin comes through — gatlin steals it! coleman thought he had it, bolt never got there. it's gatlin. it's definitely gatlin. they're all looking. coleman second, and usain bolt in third. well done, well done.
gold medallist and world champion, representing the united states of america, justin gatlin. we can speak to british sprinter and former 4x400 metre relay world champion, derek redmond. he won gold in 1991 against the us team with kris akabusi running down the world champion antonio pettigrew in the home straight. iwan thomas also a former 4 by 400 metre world champion. they initally won silver against the us in 1997 but were upgraded to gold in 2009 after that same antonio pettigrew admitted drug use. and iwan is also hosting the games within the stadium.
derek the booing last night was not as emphatic as saturday night. what do you think of the crowd expressing their opinion in the way they did? personally i think i would have been silent and if i could have advised the crowd to do anything, it would have to do nothing, but try controlling that many thousand people who are going to have their own views, their own opinions and some decided to boo and some decided not to. i don't think it was great to hear booing for anybody, but i'm not particularly a fan of what justin gatlin has done or particularly a follower of his, but i think if it was me, i would advice eve ryo ne i think if it was me, i would advice everyone to be silent because you know, he was there. he served his ban and unfortunately, he is allowed to compete and that's what he did. should the crowd have been booing the authorities? they make the
rules ? the authorities? they make the rules? justin gatlin ways racing legitimately? he was. every night the iaaf are addressing the issue. they are trying to clean the sport up they are trying to clean the sport up and unfortunately in doing so it is highlighting the fact that sport people will cheat. so i think it is a long process whereby the laws and the rules do need to be changed, but to give someone a lifetime ban, they've tried it brvings it is not they've tried it brvings it is not the governing body that's restricting that, it is the court of law. the court of arbitration in sport. yes. that's what the iaaf say, they say we have campaigned for lifetime ban, but because of the threat of legal action that athletes can bring, we can't introduce lifetime bans? no. it's unfortunate, i think, we lifetime bans? no. it's unfortunate, ithink, we need lifetime bans? no. it's unfortunate, i think, we need to send the right message out to the next generation and that's what we're trying to do. the atmosphere inside the stadium is fantastic. this is the only negative pa rt of fantastic. this is the only negative part of it and unfortunatelyjustin gatlin is allowed to be there. he has done nothing wrong at the current situation as the law lies,
but i personally think perhaps two strikes and you should be out. they need to look at that. it is difficult. let's talk about. derek, two strikes and you're out. i have been going back to the reasons why justin gatlin was banned. he was diagnosed with adht as a nine—year—old and he been taking prescribed medication ever since. medication which contains an amphetamine which back in 2001 was permissible for out of competition use, but banned during in competition use and the panel that looked at his case said he was not a cheat. there was a genuine medical explanation for his positive test. yes, he had to be banned, but that's why they reduced the ban from two yea rs why they reduced the ban from two years to one years because they said justin gatlin neither cheated nor did he intend to. ok. yeah. if that's the case, and i understand and respect that, my issue with justin gatlin is the second time
round. he has been through this process once. allegedly clean and by if you like some kind of miss demeanour, some kind of confusion with what he was allowed it take out of season and what he is not supposed to be taking in season, but the second time round, he has been through this process and he knows the score and decided have a go again. hang on, just a second, for our audience, what he said on the second occasion in 2006 was that a disgruntled massage therapist had basically rubbed cream with testosterone into his legs deliberately. i can see your wry smile and the panel said the evidence did not elimb nat the possibility of intentional use or that he was an unwitting victim. it just wasn't clear? well, ok, so, even the second time, i've never known a drug cheat when they get
caught to say, "fair cop, it's me." some profess their innocence after serving a ban and even when they come back. you expect an athlete who has gone down that route to turn around and say, "oh, it wasn't me." going back to my point to go through this process a second time, whether it was rubbed in by a disgruntled mass sewer or not, he has been going through this process a second time andi through this process a second time and i think something does need to be done and you know i'm all for a life ban and i understand what the court of arbitration, lets not use the word life, let's give a 15 year ban, a 10 year ban, something that does end an athlete's career. i still think a lot of athletes will still think a lot of athletes will still try the once and it is like the false start rule. we used to have two false starts and now it has gone down to one and now no one can have a false start. let me ask about the national federations who select
former drug cheats. could they take more responsibility? some federations are stricter than others. some will say in british athletics if you have been a drugs cheat, you can't go to the olympic games. where the grey area, let's assume justin gatlin is telling the truth there. it's not so black and white. what hasn't helped in this case with the crowds booing, the fa ct case with the crowds booing, the fact that i am bolt documentary has been on the bbc. it is not clearly two drugs tests, whae has done is terrible for the sport, but if the adht medication is correct, then people just see and read that he has beena people just see and read that he has been a tw—time drug cheat. maybe, it's not as black and white as we first think, but as an ex—athlete, whatever you put in your body you have to be responsible. if someone was massaging me and using new oil i would say, "what's this you're using?" i would say, "what's this you're using? " i check would say, "what's this you're using?" i check everything i put on my using?" i check everything i put on d using?" i check everything i put on my body or is used one body because you have to be responsible for your own future. thank you very much.
your views, welcome, of course, what did you think of what the crowd did? are they, people boo at other sporting events, don't they? you have probably been to a football match or two where there has been booing? is it any different in an athletics match? before that the weather. here is carol. this week the weather is looking u nsettled. this week the weather is looking unsettled. today is no exception. rain in the south—west and the far south—east staying dry and the other side, brighter skies, sunshine south—east staying dry and the other side, brighterskies, sunshine and showers but some showers could be heavy and sundry in scotland and northern ireland. tonight that moves backwards and you concede the rain tonight. a lot of dry weather around. showers in the north and west. temperatures falling between nine and 15. tomorrow's starting with rain. if anything it will
retreat back to the south—east. joining forces with rain from the continent. east anglia, essex, kent, hampshire in particular will see downpours. for much of england and wales cloudy and wet. the far north, another day of sunshine and showers with temperatures between 15 and 19. hello, it's monday, it's 10 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. the british model allegedly kidnapped and held in milan for six days feared for her life minute by minute. police in italy said 20—year—old chloe ayling was abducted and drugged before attempts we re abducted and drugged before attempts were made to sell her in an online auction. translation: he is dangerous because the victim was drugged with ketamine. as soon as she was kidnapped, let's say she was injected with ketamine. also on the programme we can reveal that 32 children between the ages of 3 and 5
were referred to the nhs last year because they're unhappy with the gender. we've been following lily and jessica — two of the uk's youngest transgender children — since 2015 and will bring you an update on them this hour how would you like people to treat you? like a normal girl. iwould rather they did not mention it rather they did not mention it rather than always talk about it. more from them and we will talk live to the boss of the uk's only uk gender clinic for under 18. a google software engineer believes that men make better programmers than winning. more men like coding because it requires systemising. than winning. more men like coding because it requires systemisingm you are a woman in a because it requires systemisingm you are a woman in a techjob because it requires systemisingm you are a woman in a tech job tell us your reaction. here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom with a summary of todays news.
a british model who was kidnapped almost a week in milan has returned to the uk. chloe ayling said she feared for her life and claim she was trucked, stuffed as a suitcase and threatened with being sold as a sex slave after being booked for a photo shoot. italian police say she was attacked and drugged by two people. the woman was held in abandoned shop on the outskirts of the city. italian police say the model was attacked and robbed by two people. translation: the victim was doped with ketamine and locked in a bag and carried four hours in a car. think what would've happened if she suffered asthma. it was thought she was put into the boot of this vehicle and they believe she was taken to a remit cottage and say she
spent much of her week—long ordeal handcuffed to a chest of drawers. her kidnapper is alleged have tried to sell her for sex on the internet and demanded a ransom of nearly a quarter of £1 million. after six days she was released and taken to the british consulate. this man, a 30—year—old polish national living in britain has been arrested by italian police. new laws which will give people more control over what happens to their personal data online are to be introduced. the government is billing the changes as the right to be forgotten. people will be able to ask for personal data or material they posted when they were children to be deleted. brazilian police say a british woman has been shot and wounded near rio de janeiro. officials say a couple and their three children were targeted by an armed group after taking a wrong turn. the woman's condition isn't thought to be life threatening. the foreign office says it is in
touch with brazilian authorities. thousands of commuters are having their journeys disrupted today, because of major improvement work at britain's busiest railway station, waterloo in london. more than half of its platforms are closed so they can be extended to accommodate longer trains. they will be closed until 28th of august. network rail has warned of "challenging days" ahead for passengers. an average of 270,000 journeys are made to and from the station every day. executives at google have denounced an internal memo in which an employee criticises the company's policy on diversity. in the piece, a male software engineer argued that the lack of females in top tech jobs was due to biological differences between men and women. the article was posted on an internal discussion board. while the author has been widely criticised, he also says he has received messages of gratitude from fellow googlers. mollie king is the first celebrity to be confirmed taking part in the new series of strictly come dancing. the singerfrom the
new series of strictly come dancing. the singer from the saturdays said she was excited to be a contestant. the series starts on bbc one next month. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10.30am. justin gatlin, stewart said the public made a decision to boo and you should respect that. another said for me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. michael said it is the factjustin gatlin has never said sorry and if he did it would help a lot. he has talked about going into academic institutions and talking to people about his story. what happened to him. his experience. but clearly that is not enough for more some people. day four of the world athletics championships. jessica is at the london stadium for us. we're reflecting on two very different reactions to two medal ceremonies. good morning, a day of mixed reactions yesterday and on the one hand you had big cheers and warm
applause forjessica ennis—hill, receiving her retrospective world gold medalfrom receiving her retrospective world gold medal from 2011. receiving her retrospective world gold medalfrom 2011. six receiving her retrospective world gold medal from 2011. six years after the fact because the athletes that had beaten her at the time was found to have cheated and doped and therefore disqualified. it was an emotional day for her. whilst as we have seen her on the podium. she is eight months into her pregnancy now. and then in contrast, justin gatlin. questions around the stadium yesterday a about what reaction he would receive after winning a dramatic 100 metres final and coming back after those two drugs bans. it was an interesting reaction and mix to because there was booing but also there was cheering. he was also applauded by his opponents. coleman
and usain bolt, butjustin gatlin has been receiving booing all through the championships and feels he has done his time and should be welcomed back into the sport. jessica ennis—hill coach tony minichiello understands why fans vent their frustrations. the crowd is entitled to express its opinion of the entertainment presented to it. i have no problem with the way the crowd conducted themselves. they we re the crowd conducted themselves. they were respectful at the times they needed and expressed their opinion appropriately and it was not all of the crowd. it was more of an ooh van a boo. this is why we watch sport and so fixed on it. there's talk about the british team. a disappointing day yesterday. we have seen such drama but yesterday was a chance for british athletes to stand
up chance for british athletes to stand up and impress. it was quite disappointing. there were high hopes put on katarina johnson—thompson in the heptathlon. she had a tough first day and came back was second and performed well in herfinal three events. she left herself too much to do by the time she got to be 800 metres and it was the olympic champion, nafi thiam, the belgian, who won the gold medal. she will be disappointed. holly bradshaw had a good season but fell short in the pole vaults. she did not manage to get over the bar set it four metres 75, knocking it down on the way down and heartbreaking scenes of her crying when she had gone out. we hope for a better day today. in the evening session we have sophie hitchon going on in the hammer. in
the 1500 metres final we have laura muirand laura the 1500 metres final we have laura muir and laura weightman. there is no morning session today. it is very quiet. eerily quiet in the london stadium, but action gets under way at 6pm on bbc two. cheers. welcome to the programme. this programme has discovered that 32 children between the ages of three and five have been referred to the nhs over the last year because they‘ re unhappy with their biological gender. in total this year 216 children under the age of 10 have been to the nhs's only gender identity service for under 18s — that figure has more than doubled over the last two years. "tra nsgender" means someone who doesn't identify as the gender they were assigned to when they were born. they may wish to be seen as a different gender or no gender at all. over the last two and a half years we've been following two of the uk's youngest transgender children, lily and jessica, who are nine and ten. we played you ourfull film earlier.
here's a short extract. i feel 99% girl and 1% boy. i always had to complain and say, "oh, i don't want to put trousers on," but now i'm a girl i'm like, "yeah, i get to put tights on, dresses on," all those things. so tell me what makes you happiest at the moment. everyone's always looking after me, and caring. what would you say makes you sad? people, like, not being kind, when i see people being bullied. have people... has anyone been mean to you? yeah, there's this person and they're just being really mean. can i ask what they said to you? they said, "you won't be a very good woman —
you should just be a man." and that really upset me. do your friends talk to you ever about you living your life as a boy in the past? they never did, or they don't. everybody accepts you and just gets on with it? yeah. and how do you feel about that? i'd rather them not mention it, than, you know, them always talking about it. how do you want people to treat you? like a normal girl. have you thought about when you go to secondary school, will you tell people that you used to live as a boy, or will you not mention it? i won't mention it, but if it comes up i probably will say, you know... you'll be honest? mm. since we first spoke to you and broadcast the film on our programme two years ago, what do you think has
changed in these two years? how much has changed? i think a lot has changed. there's a lot more coverage i think of trans, especially trans children issues, which i think has been brilliant, and has hopefully helped a lot of families. i think we've gone a long way. people have a better understanding now. the education is coming through as well that, you know, kids aren't having surgeries, as it's been reported, at such a young age. it's not as sensationalised as it once was. although there are still people, and there will be people watching you right now, who say, "your kids are still too young. how can they possibly know?" i think if you've lived with a child, as we have, my child lily, she isjust how she is now. she is who she needs to be. jessica's a clever little girl, young lady, even. i mean, she's. .. she's grown up quick. yeah, she's grown up so much in the last year. i have every faith that she's
going to have a happy life. dr polly carmichael is here. she's a consultant clinical psychologist and the director of the gender identity development centre which is the only nhs service for under 18s in the uk. welcome. how typical are the experiences ofjessica and lily when it comes to transgender children in britain? i think all the young people we see are individuals, but they are fairly typical. i think with this younger age group not all of them have socially transitioned, but for young people who have socially transitioned i think these two young people are very representative. talk us through what happens when a child or young person is referred to your service. ok. so, it depends on age really, but if we're thinking about younger people, they would come
along, usually with their families and we would carry out an assessment so that would be a number of meetings over a number of months and it's a really broad ranging assessment. so we're thinking about the young person's general development across education, but also relationships, peer relationships and so on as well as thinking about their gender. i think with some families the first task is to really find a way of communicating because what you find maybe is that one parent will be very supportive of the young person whereas the other might be quite worried. so i think finding a way of talking. just thinking about gender over time would be the way we'd approach it. and what kind of things do the children express to you about their identity? well, i think part of gender dysphoria as it's called is distress associated with feeling that your gender identity doesn't
match your physical body, i've com pletely match your physical body, i've completely forgotten your question there... it's fine. iwas completely forgotten your question there... it's fine. i was asking what children say to you about their gender, if they have gender dysphoria? yes. well, i mean part of thatis dysphoria? yes. well, i mean part of that is a belief about identity. so, you know, young people will typically say that they feel their sense of themselves doesn't match their body. . right. in many cases, are they frustrated ? their body. . right. in many cases, are they frustrated? are they bewildered? anry? are they frustrated? are they bewildered ? anry? what are they frustrated? are they bewildered? anry? what kind of emotions would you say they're expressing? they present as certain, but that's not to say that there aren't a lot of difficulties around and even though there is great are awareness which is fantastic, many of the young people we see have been bullied and teased at school and so, i think, for some there is a feeling of shame. so we would be
facilitating really open conversation around the gender and trying to be supportive. i think as a service we totally accept the gender that your people come along with because after all it is their identity. let me ask you about the figures which show that 32 children aged between three and five have been referred to the nhs in the last year because they're unhappy with their gender. how can that be when we are talking about a child as young as three potentially? well, i think if you talk to the parents of these young people they will since their child was crawling and able to communicate they were always showing preferences for toys typically associated with the other gender, but it's also about personal statements. so, you know, for example very young kids can say things like, "mummy, i'm a boy on the outside, but a girl on the inside. soi the outside, but a girl on the inside. so i think it's not simply about liking toys of the
other gender as is sometimes said, it isa other gender as is sometimes said, it is a much more profound sense of being. can you get a prod found sense of a being from a three—year—old? sense of a being from a three-year-old? i think three—year—olds communicate very well and you can absolutely. how would you know whether to take that three—year—old seriously when there are kids who go through phases? that's a really good question because i know people have great concerns about this. one should be supportive of young people in terms of what they are saying about themselves. that says nothing about how things will unfold in the future and the thing to bear in mind is that this is a process and nothing is set in stone. that's interesting. how is set in stone. that's interesting. h ow ofte n is set in stone. that's interesting. how often might you see a child, at a young age, a three orfour or five—year—old who as they grow and mature actually changes their mind? well, in fact, for the younger ones, those referred to the service at five years old, it would only be
about 6% of those who ultimately go on to seek physical interventions to change their body. ok. so what of the other 94%? change their body. ok. so what of the other 9496? the other 9496 have different outcome. some might carry on feeling that their gender doesn't quite fit the stereotypes. others it will be an outcome around sexuality. for others, they will settle into the gender of which they were assigned at birth. it is a tiny proportion? a tiny proportion of the very young ones. what's your explanation for the increase in the numbers of children and young people seeking support for identifying as transgender? i think there is a lot that's immensely positive about that andi that's immensely positive about that and i think media had a very large pa rt and i think media had a very large part to play. so there is much greater awareness and i think on one of your earlier tweets, there was an older person saying that they hadn't had the language to describe their
feelings and often young people who attend our service will talk about having seen a character on tv or met someone at school and by meeting other people, hearing about other people's experiences of gender, they're able to put words to their own feelings. right. so the raising of awareness, the media attention has led to more young people being referred to your clinic for example? a couple of years ago we had an astronomical increase in the number of referrals. it doubled in a year. it is hard to know why things come together at a certain time. but i think it is very much to do with raised awareness on the media, but also social media. there are still a lot of misconceptions about transgender children. let's talk about blockers, puberty blockers that pause piberty to allow a young person more time to really make sure
they do want to continue down a particular route. how often would you turn down children for that kind of help because you don't think they need it? i think most often it's a collaborative agreement between families and young people. so it would be a rare occasion where we would be a rare occasion where we would perhaps think that it's not the right thing to be going ahead with hormone blockers. in some cases it may not be the right thing but later on it will be the right thing. i guess we do our best to support young people to, you know, make the decision that's right for them and support them get there if that's what feels right. do you know, do we know about any long—term side—effects of hormone blockers on a child or young person if they decide to stop taking them? what research has been done in that area? hormone blockers have been offered
in holland in a very long established specialist clinic and in actual fact they are the only clinic to have published any long—term outcome data. so, it would be absolutely right to say that there isn't any good long—term outcome data at this time. although the data we have is supportive of it being a reversible intervention that doesn't have long—term ill effects. reversible intervention that doesn't have long-term ill effects. ok. you will have heard some of the comments that i have aide read out from our audience. as a qualify doctor, what do you say to people who are watching now who don't believe children can really make decisions about their gender identity?” children can really make decisions about their gender identity? i think children aren't making decisions about their gender identity when they say that they feel that their body doesn't match their sense of themselves. that's a statement about themselves. that's a statement about themselves. in terms of making
decisions, i guess, you know, the big decisions are for those young people who may feel that the right course for them is to undertake physical interventions and i think asa physical interventions and i think as a service, we're mindful of the need for young people to consent and we put a lot of time into working with young people and their families over time. it's a process, not an event. so i'd say to people who are sceptical that we take a cautious and considered approach and i think, you know, it is essential that that's the case. let me read this e—mailfrom somebody that's the case. let me read this e—mail from somebody who wishes to remain anonymous. "my seven—year—old son had always showed femen nine attributes. we put coins in the wishing well. we wished to be a girl. all his friends are girls and he often talks about girl things. he is being bullied at school, but he
didn't back down. i don't care if he wa nts to didn't back down. i don't care if he wants to be male orfemale, but it brea ks wants to be male orfemale, but it breaks my heart to see how other people are with him. i love him however he wants to be. ijust need advice, i guess. however he wants to be. ijust need advice, iguess. he however he wants to be. ijust need advice, i guess. he seems very sad at the moment." what would you advice that parent? i would advice them to go to their gp and seek a referral, either to their local child and adolescence service or they could seek a referral to ourselves, it would be about offering a space to think about those things and explore the feelings of the young person. those people who are against trance kids have no idea what they are talking about. the medical support is great. i wish i could have done the same at that age. you mentioned physical interventions and we talked about the blockers that pause puberty. in this country, my understanding is on the nhs, you have to be around the
age of 16 before you could be offered cross sex hormones. just explain what they are first of all? cross sex hormones. so, most of us, alof us, produce sex hormones that put our bodies through a male puberty or a female puberty. cross sex hormones would be when an individual takes hormones that aren't in line with the physical body they have. right. now, both lily and jessica's parents said to me they wondered if 16 might be too old for their child and it might cause distress to their child if they had to wait until that age before they could get access to those cross sex hormones. what do you say to them? i had understand that and that is something that increasingly we're hearing and i know that in some parts of the usa they are offering cross sex hormones atan they are offering cross sex hormones at an earlier age. i would say that cross sex hormones are the first stage of a physical treatment that's not fully reversible. it has
implications for an individual‘s fertility and one is always balancing up if you like the gains and the losses and so, i think, you know, if one can have a supportive environment that accepts young trance people —— trans people and they don't feel out of place if their development is less than their peers. the extra time we have for young people to consider the implications of taking cross sex hormones is really quite important in terms of development. ok. thank you. thank you very much for coming on the programme. dr polly carmichael from the, she is the director of the gender identity development service. the nhs' only service for under—18s in the uk. your comments, welcome, of course. the lack of women in top tech jobs is due to biological differences between men and women and not sexism. that's the verdict of one google software engineer whose internal memo has been leaked
and widely criticised. the unnamed author says women generally "preferjobs in social or artistic areas" while "more men may like coding" and that "the abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don't see equal representation of women in tech and leadership". let's hear a bit more of what the author had to say in his memo. the quotes are read by one of our team. as society becomes more prosperous and more egalitarian innate dispositional differences between men and women have more space to develop, and the gap that exists between men and women in their personality becomes wider. we need to stop assuming that gender gaps imply sexism. we always ask why we don't see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many men in thesejobs. these positions are often require long stressful hours that may not be worth it if you want to balance a fulfilling life. women relatively preferjobs in social or artistic areas. more men may like coding because it requires systemising. google say the memo — posted on an internal
discussion board — is "not a viewpoint the company endorses, promotes or encourages". and that, "diversity and inclusion are a fundamental part of our values and the culture we continue to cultivate." but is there any truth in claims that biological differences impact the type ofjobs men and women are good at? zoejervier is from entrepreneur first, a body that helps engineering start—up companies. what do you think about this men and women's brains wired differently?m is the opinion of one google employee who's put forward a controversial viewpoint that biological make women less heated to careers in engineering and it has sparked outrage understandably
internally at google and externally. many have pointed out there are factual mistakes in what he has said. there is confusion around the root cause as to what causes women to not want to enter engineering as a career path. in june, google released figures that showed one in five tech roles was filled by a woman last year. the us national average is 26%. what barriers are there to women entering these jobs? it is not that women are biologically predisposed against techjobs. biologically predisposed against tech jobs. there biologically predisposed against techjobs. there are biologically predisposed against tech jobs. there are a number of factors along the way in trying to enter that as a career that are discouraging. google are dealing with the tail end of the diversity in tech problem but the root causes earlier. at university, a—levels,
pre—classroom, even. there are great companies trying to address the root cause problem. entrepreneur first set upa cause problem. entrepreneur first set up a free programme available to all female university students. there is more we need to do. if you go to university, that is almost too late to make those decisions. it needs to be earlier. root causes, do you say it is the way parents bring up you say it is the way parents bring up kids and teachers encourage boys and girls to do different subjects? yes it starts much earlier. down to the toys bought and marketed towards children. the gendered characters and roles we see in cartoons that children watch. there is a lot we need to do earlier. it does not mean we should not do anything later in the pipeline and generally google are seen as leaders in diversity inclusion practices. it was good of
them to respond quickly that this is not something they believe in at a company not something they believe in at a com pa ny culture level. not something they believe in at a company culture level. robin says this, robin is a woman, as one of only two women programmers on my university course out of hundreds, i feel it is vital not to make women feel it is vital not to make women feel they cannot code as well as male counterparts because of one google employee's opinion. there is a shortage of women in this industry because we have been told from the young gauge tech jobs are not for us, even though there are no physical advantages in the job, just willingness to learn and sometimes talent. that picks up on a striking contradiction in the google employee's memo. even if it were true women had high levels of empathy and therefore were suited to certain roles, people skills and having an understanding of people and behaviours is essential to being and behaviours is essential to being a successful engineer. you would
expect women would be great candidates for these roles because of that difference, rather than despite. thank you. still to come: it was a social experiment for channel 4, but when 23 people were sent to live on a remote part of the highlands to build a self—sufficient community things quickly went wrong. we'll speak to a contestant from the show eden about what happened. it is back on channel 4 tonight. most it is back on channel 4 tonight. m ost pa re nts it is back on channel 4 tonight. most parents do everything they can to help children follow their dreams and we meet the sum taking on the role of supporting his mum through her dream of role of supporting his mum through herdream of gaining role of supporting his mum through her dream of gaining further qualifications. with the news, here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom. a 20—year—old british model who says she kidnapped for almost a week in milan has returned to the uk. chloe ayling says she feared for her life "second by second" and claims she was drugged, stuffed in a suitcase and threatened with being sold as a sex slave after being booked for a photo shoot.
italian police say the model was attacked and drugged by two people. a polish man who lives in the uk has been arrested on kidnapping charges. new laws which will give people more control over what happens to their personal data online are to be introduced. the government is billing the changes as the right to be forgotten. people will be able to ask for personal data or material they posted when they were children to be deleted. police in brazil say a british woman has been shot and wounded near rio de janeiro. officials say a couple and their three children were targeted by an armed group after taking a wrong turn. in theircar. the woman's condition isn't thought to be life threatening. the foreign office says it is in touch with brazilian authorities. disruption expected from a major upgrade at the uk's busiest train station has not materialised with many trains quieter than expected. more than half of platforms at london's waterloo station are closed, so they can be extended to accommodate longer trains. they will remain closed until 28th august.
network rail has warned of "challenging days" ahead for passengers. an average of 270,000 journeys are made to and from waterloo every day. mollie king is the first celebrity dancer confirmed to be taking part in the new series of strictly come dancing. the 30—year—old singer from the saturdays said she was "so excited" to be a contestant in the dancing competition. the new series starts on bbc one next month. that's a summary of the latest news. join me for bbc newsroom live at 11am. here's some sport now withjessica. good morning. dave four of the world athletics championships. quiet at the london stadium with no morning session so we are reflecting on yesterday and what was two different reactions to two different medal ceremonies with warm applause for jessica ennis—hill as she received a retrospective gold medal but booing
forjustin gatlin as he received his ioo forjustin gatlin as he received his 100 metres gold. great britain have only won one gold medal so far but hoped the best at night as laura muirand laura hoped the best at night as laura muir and laura weightman go in the 1500 metres final. laura muir is hoping to do the 5000 and 1500 metres double. sophie hitchon is a medal hope that she goes in the final of the hammer. the olympic bronze medallist goes for a gold medal at 7pm. in the next half—hour, england's cricketers will get day four of the final test against south africa under way and are on course for a series win against the tourists. charlie said his mum left school with no convocations but re—entered education at 36 and did a doctorate in her 40s education at 36 and did a doctorate in her40s and education at 36 and did a doctorate in her 40s and now is a special reality engineer. the idea she was
not wired right probably caused her to leave it so late. this belief in genetic difference helps no one. last year, 23 people who'd been selected for their specific skills — such as a doctor, shepherdess, plumber — were sent to live on a remote part of the highlands and given basic tools and supplies to build a self—sufficient community. the idea was a social experiment from channel 4. but things quickly went wrong with claims of bullying, cliques, fights, dog—eat—dog rivalry and rampant sexism with dominant members of the group accused of trying to starve out people they saw as weak. here's a taste of what happened. hello! in march 2016, channel 4 cut off 23 brits from the outside world. i love it! tasked with starting a new society from scratch... it's 12 months, and there's no contact. ..did they create a utopia? the irony is it's anything but. or something else entirely? i can't stand these people!
us men need to do the manlyjobs — the women need to do the womenjobs. and you're the most horrible group of men i've ever met in my life! it's a muddy, dark, stinking hellhole. i saw the darkness coming. human nature's darker side, shown over five nights. bring me home! the series was taken off air after the first four episodes, but the group were left there, and every night this week at 10pm on channel 4, we'll see what happened to them. we can speak now to katie tunn, who was a participant on the programme. kelly webb—lamb, channel 4's head of factual entertainment. and entertainmentjournalist and tv critic emma bullimore. welcome. how was it? it was brilliant and awful and easy and really tough. everything happens. it was a life changing experience. give us an example of a high. the sunsets. we were in paradise, one of the most beautiful places you could
imagine in the uk. seeing the sunset, you could have a bad day and he would see the sunset over the hills, there will be seals, eagles, it was pretty amazing. what was your motivation to be part of it? if you are given an opportunity that is unusual, when do you get the chance to almost press pause on your life and go away and try something new? i live on the isle of skye and love that landscape. it is brilliant to be out in nature so this was perhaps the next step of being more in nature and living with the environment and trying to live with the environment rather than against it. what went wrong? the trouble is, we went... people are very skilled. we have people with wonderful skills, carpentry skills, whatever, but we did not share the same goal. people had different ideas of what they wanted to gain from it and
however great your skills, if you do not want to achieve the same thing... there was a competitive element which is not conducive for creating a community. were some people there to survive in some like you to start afresh and see if you could create a new society? the idea of survival was problematic. there we re of survival was problematic. there were people who went in for different reasons but the people who went in for survival, if you are trying to survive you are perhaps insulating yourself and not looking for attributes in others that can work ina for attributes in others that can work in a community. if you try to survive, you are perhaps trying to make sure you are doing the best and it becomes competitive, which is not good for creating a community. kelly, are you pleased with this outcome? that some people left? some people hated it. there was sexism. i think pleased is not a word i would
use. i think the outcome is genuinely interesting. for us, surprising, but also it has had something quite important to say about who we are as people and about society. what has been interesting for me about the project is that the idea at the beginning as katie says was about starting a society from scratch and that was the question at the start of the series, what would happen if we could start again? actually, it does go to a very dark and quite uncomfortable place in lots of different ways. what is interesting about that is, for me watching it, you think, do you know what, i watching it, you think, do you know what, lam watching it, you think, do you know what, i am lucky that i live, i am glad i live in a society with laws and rules and conventions on how we behave and expectations of how men and women behave towards each other
and women behave towards each other and have a strong perhaps look after the week and the structures of society are good for us all rather than something that perhaps you think, let's get rid of it, wouldn't it be great to live somewhere where we can do what we wanted. that is what is interesting about it. you have seen a preview, what think?m is interesting, the start of a utopian vision, harking back to old days of tv where it was a social experiment. it is quite disturbing. i saw experiment. it is quite disturbing. isawa experiment. it is quite disturbing. i saw a preview of the first episode andl i saw a preview of the first episode and i know it gets darker. it is the creeping elements of misogyny. it wasjust the way creeping elements of misogyny. it was just the way the male participants seem to treat the female participants as different, we can members of the group, when it is supposed to be an egalitarian society. it is alarming especially as in shows like big brother we are used to seeing reduces intervened to
say it is bullying, that did not happen in this show and you have to ask whether responsibility is. with channel 4 and the people who took part, presumably, but you selected those people. you have an idea that they are misogynistic for example? really, the way it ended up going was a nap really, the way it ended up going was a nap salutes are brights. people were selected for their skills and everybody had something to offer, a hunter, fishermen, it was to offer, a hunter, fishermen, it was people there who could create a new society. i think from our point of view, duty of care is absolutely essential. the premise of the project was this was unlike reality tv where producers are pulling the strings all the time. it was completely hands—off. it was this is the project and the cameras were there to film it. they were
monitored all the time and they could leave, which many did. there was a could leave, which many did. there was a psychologist if they wanted to speak to them. what was the worst bit and why did you stick it out?|j cannot go into detail because it is on the programme, but, i don't know, there were times when you just thought... you missed family and friends at home. you would have expected that. it is the unexpected ewing countered that is interesting. you take the network —— unexpected that ewing countered. being able to get away from the problem and being able to talk to a different set of people or get some space in and issue but there you cannot come you see them every day. you have to face up see them every day. you have to face up to thing. there is no white noise to forget about things. in terms of why i stuck it out, partially
stubbornness. good. and no regrets. it was really difficult. some of the most difficult times i had were in there. but at the same time it was an opportunity. see how you can do it. we look forward to watching. thanks for coming on the programme. tonight at ten o'clock on channel 4. a nhs specialist has told this programme of his anger that his british wife and their three young children have been stranded on opposite sides of the atlantic because this government won't let the couple's two adopted children into the uk. patrick thies, an american orthopaedic surgeon who was recruited to work at birmingham hospital, says he may now have to give up his job to return to his family in the states. the family initially applied for the wrong visa following some duff advice. but they say the way british authorities have treated their birth son and adopted sons differently is unforgivable. we spoke earlier to patrick from oregon in the us where he is now living
with their two adopted sons and gillian thies in our birmingham studio, who told us more about how the family found themselves separated. my oldest two children, who are american, and also adopted, they were denied entry when we arrived at heathrow last year. we've spent thousands over the last year and a half trying to get them here permanently and legally, and we've been unsuccessful. so about a month ago we got a letter saying the most recent attempt was denied and so they had to leave and go back to america. and, patrick, that's where you are with your two adopted sons, benjamin and edward, aged ten and 12. is the issue that they are adopted as opposed to your biological children? i think both of them are an issue, both as adoptive children — uk law says that they cannot be treated any differently
than biological children, but immigration thinks otherwise and treats them differently. and how do you feel about that? well, again, following uk law, they're my children — they're our children, and i don't treat them any differently than my biological child. this has been going on now, gillian, for long enough — long enough. how is this going to be resolved? well, we don't know. hopefully now that they're back in the states and they have applied for another visa, and we are hoping that it will be granted very soon — this week, hopefully, would be nice. we'd just like to have them back as soon as possible. what impact is it having on your family life? well, total — we're completely separated and we can't make plans at the moment. you know, half the family's gone. i have no idea when they're going to be back. obviously it's expensive,
having to buy plane tickets and live separately. it has just affected everything. and, patrick, can you describe to our audience what it was like when the children were originally detained arriving in britain at the airport? it was a little scary for them because they were fingerprinted and put in a holding cell. now, it was a very nice holding cell, but they knew for sure that they were being detained by immigration and the border patrol, and they had no idea why and what was going on. ok, so how do you think this is going to be resolved? well, ideally, someone at the governmental level will look at it and say that this is silly and approve either the visas, or even better — their mother is british and just accept that british citizens and give them that, but it's just a matter of time before this is figured out. there were brought in,
your adopted boys, they were brought in on a tourist visa. it was clear that it wasn'tjust going to be for tourism purposes, for a short visit, so i wonder if you could argue the immigration laws have been applied correctly? oh, absolutely, and that's something that i've said repeatedly, is the immigration laws were applied throughout this. the drawback is we called the uk government before we started this whole process and this is what they told us to do — come into the country as american tourists, change their status in country to dependent visas. as it turns out, that advice was incorrect, but what could we do? we were following governmental advice. and the advice now is what, gillian? that they had to leave the country and apply as patrick's dependeds on his visa. there's no way for me to get them here as my dependents,
even though i'm british. so that's what we decided to do, to send them out of the country and apply for them there. we thought it would take two weeks, and then the most recent news was 12 weeks, so that was another shock to us. but if things go according to plan, doing it that way might mean patrick can return to hisjob in birmingham where you are, and your two older boys can come to this country? correct. until march. and then my contract is up, and then i get placed... or they've already told me that they are going to give me definite work at that point, or a contract, then we'll have to redo all three visas to become indefinite work contracts. ok. well, thank you both — thank you very much for talking to us and we wish you all the best. thank you. thank you very much. we asked the home office for comment on the thies family's situation. they told us, "we do not routinely
comment on individual cases. all applications for leave to remain are considered on their individual merits in line with the immigration rules." thank you for your messages about ourfilm thank you for your messages about our film following lily and jessica, two of britain's youngest transgender children. we have been following them for a couple of yea rs. following them for a couple of years. this texter says, "i am the carer of a trans child. it is not a path i would have chosen to go down and seeing him struggle daily getting dressed with a developing female body is torturous. as a family, it is a massivejourney, but as long as he is happy and safe and doing well in school, we will support whatever path he chooses. i wish others would give him the same respect." this from tracey, "my partner told me at the age of 47 that she wanted to transition. it was tough at first, but ten years on, she is now happier than ever. the boy shell she had to live in was killing her. she is known since she
was seven. let the kids who they wa nt to was seven. let the kids who they want to be. it save years of heartache." david want to be. it save years of heartache. " david e—mails want to be. it save years of heartache." david e—mails this, "i'm watching your programme today regarding transgender and watching your programme today regarding tra nsgender and regarding age, i have had this since the age of six to seven. and have suffered for over 60 years, 60 years, you know your thoughts, but in my case, you were told to get a grip or offered electric shock treatment." thank you. wendy says, "i have a grandchild who is transgender who presented with a preferred gender behaviours from the age of three. another grandson at a similar age when i called him chicken went on to say "i am a little boy." children do identity with their gender. thank you for your programme it does help." re—decca you for your programme it does help. " re—decca says you for your programme it does help." re—decca says "how can a child of three articulate they want to be the opposite sex?" deborah says, "i am a transgender female. to be the opposite sex?" deborah says, "i am a transgenderfemale. i have known that i was different from
the age of four, but back in the 70s the age of four, but back in the 70s the world was a very different place to live than today. there is a lot more understanding for people like me today. i am still doing the same job, driving freight trains. all the lads i work with have been great with me in letting me find the person that i need to be." thank you very much for those. a 20—year—old british model says she was kidnapped for a week in northern italy. she claims she was drugged, stuffed in a suitcase and threatened with being sold as a sex slave after being booked for a photo—shoot. she has return to britain and has been speaking to an italian reporter outside her house. translation: i have been through a terrifying experience. more throughout the day on bbc news.
a son has done something really special for a son has done something really specialfor his a son has done something really special for his mum. we can talk now to rui da silva. he's a youth worker and music producer who is 23. just over a week ago, he started the fundraising page for his mum. and his mum elnete. tell our audience what issue was? right, 0k. tell our audience what issue was? right, ok. my mum got accepted to university in west london quite a while ago and she was really excited by it and we were looking for funding because we didn't have any student finance support because she was older. we applied for a loan via the professional career service and they rejected it for many different reasons and once that happened, i was looking everywhere for any
support and i know for young people it is easy to find support. but for older people it's harder. just for my mum to do it by herself is really hard. i thought i should step in and find solutions and gofundme was the only solution. and what you wrote on gofundme you told everybody about your mum's love of cooking. tell me about your love of cooking?|j your mum's love of cooking. tell me about your love of cooking? i was growing up, what do we want? my mum always provided. for me, cooking is passion. i don't mind the time. i just cook it. before you can start this course at university, which is to do with cooking, you need this
nvq, don't you, you need this qualification first, you can't get funding for. in terms of the cash on gofundme what were you asking for? the fee. i thought about how much as a student we need to survive. so there is a course visa also, travel expenses and all those things. so i just want extra cash for her. i thought maybe something like £400 would work. i read loads of other people's gofundme and there were loads of extra cash for contingency plans. you smashed the goal. yeah. yeah. elnete he told you yesterday. how did you react? i was in shock. how did you react? i was in shock. how do you feel about going to couegein how do you feel about going to college in september? i'm excited to start it. well, well done you. thank
you. good luck. thank you. with the course and enjoy! i will. i'm sure you will. thank you both for coming on the programme. nice to meet you. the new female doctor who has given her first interview. let's the new female doctor who has given herfirst interview. let's hearfrom her. it has been incredible. the build up has been for a very long time for me. the build up only lasted three days because the promo happened on the friday and then the reveal happened on the sunday, but for me that had been months of secrecy and silent enjoyment, but not being able to share it with anyone and then the relief of it being public knowledge and knowing that i hadn't leaked and all those things has been amazing and to see the filtered prism that people send me things has been hugely positive and that is a wonderful way to start
this massive journey. it and that is a wonderful way to start this massivejourney. it will and that is a wonderful way to start this massive journey. it will be for the rest of your life as well. it's one of the only roles you can only say you are that character forever. we still always associate the previous doctors with those roles and that's one honour to know that it is not just and that's one honour to know that it is notjust a moment in your career. it is potentially for the rest of your career that you are in the best way celebrated and defined by. yody whitaker. she will be amazing of the she is one superb actress. thank you for your company today. we're back tomorrow at 9am. good morning. if you are after warm summery weather then unfortunately this week isn't going to bring it to you because it's going to stay u nsettled you because it's going to stay unsettled for many of us through this week. there is going to be rain around as well and while temperatures are about the average for the time of year, at times it will feel cool and breezy. for
today, we have got this cold front moving southwards. that's bringingous outbreaks of rain across swention and the midlands and towards eastern areas. staying cloudy here into the afternoon. further north and west, something drier and brighter breaking through the cloud. one or two showers likely across scotland and northern ireland and maximum temperatures today 17 to 21 celsius. as for this evening, there could be heavier pulses of rain as we go through the first part of the night. the rain moves further north and westward. tuesday, a messy complicated picture really. rain moving in from the east, rain towards the west. so for england and wales cloudy and wet at times. drier and brighter for scotland and for northern ireland. bye—bye. this is bbc news, and these are the top stories
developing at 11am. more powers to control personal data — the government announces bigger fines for companies who misuse our data. back home — a british model who says she was kidnapped for a week in italy, returns to the uk saying she feared for her life "second by second". she gave this interview i have been